Cannabis and Product Development - Branding Bud Live Episode 45
THE SUMMARY
What makes a great cannabis product? Is it the ingredients? Is it the manufacturing process? Is it the packaging? Listen in as we explore the latest developments and trends shaping cannabis products and product development.
THE CO-HOSTS
David Paleschuck, Adriana Hemans
THE SPECIAL GUESTS
James Kennedy, Founder of Apothecanna & CEO of Flying Colors
THE TRANSCRIPT
DAVID PALESCHUCK
Welcome to Branding Bud Live, the live stream that’s 100% THC and 0% WTF. Every week we speak with business people about the business of cannabis. I’m David Paleschuck, founder of Branding Bud Consulting Group and author of the first book on cannabis branding. I’m joined by my co-host Adriana Hemans, Director of Marketing at Green Meadows and my BCF (Best Cannabis Friend). Hi Adriana!
ADRIANA HEMANS
Hi David. Thank you for that intro. I’m so excited to co-host the show with you. We’re bringing amazing guests from across the cannabis ecosystem to share their perspectives. My favorite thing about Branding Bud Live is that we focus on building community - and we encourage audience participation. It’s not just about us talking, it’s about all of us building something together. So feel free to drop your questions and/or opinions in the chat, and we’ll share them too.
DAVID PALESCHUCK
We’re here to build community, educate and entertain … so let’s jump into today’s show. I’m super excited today for a number of reasons:
First, I'm grateful to our show sponsor - HIGHOPES - A creative agency that specializes in the cannabis industry. With over a decade of cannabis experience, HIGHOPES understands the unique challenges of the industry and helps its clients with better branding, packaging, website design, SEO, and marketing. Be sure to set up a call today at www.highopes.co
Second, we’ve received great reviews on our two online courses on cannabis branding and brand development. The first is “The 14 Cannabis Brand Archetypes” and the second course is titled, “Creating A Meaningful Cannabis Brand.” Please check them out and more at cannabis’s best-kept secret www.brandingbud.com/edu
And Third, we have James Kennedy, Founder of Apothecanna & CEO of Flying joining us. Some of the topics we’ll chat about include:
How has the landscape of cannabis product development evolved over the past decade?
What are the challenges in formulating cannabis products for diverse consumer preferences?
What are the emerging trends in cannabis product development?
I’m super excited to chat with James today.
ADRIANA HEMANS
Me too!
DAVID PALESCHUCK
Let’s welcome, James Kennedy, Founder of Apothecanna & CEO of Flying Colors. Welcome, James!
ADRIANA HEMANS
Welcome.
JAMES KENNEDY
I'm great. Thank you. I'm happy to be here.
ADRIANA HEMANS
Welcome. And a lot of us know a little bit about your background professionally, but maybe you could share a little bit more on a personal note, what are you passionate about?
JAMES KENNEDY
My background was in industrial design. A designer by training, systems design, product design, and all that kind of good stuff. As David mentioned, I got my start working in the brand Aveda. And I was doing some packaging, and I went there because I was very interested in environmentally friendly packaging. And this was kind of in the early, early 2000s. And so it was a great experience working there. And then, shortly after working there, I had the opportunity to work with the founder of Aveda. He was launching a new brand, had sold Aveda to Estee Lauder, had a few years of like a non-compete, and was launching new brands. I went on to be creative director of a brand called Intelligent Nutrients. And I kind of thought I'd be doing, similar kinds of stuff, the brand identity and packaging, and, messaging and all that, but he had this cool lab, and this was in, in Minnesota, and went out there and started seeing how he was developing products on his own. And, my kind of, thought was that there were, these chemists and scientists, and, this particular way of formulating a product that, I think does exist out there to some extent. Still, he'd have these different vendors come in, and they'd have briefcases of different essential oils, and we'd sit there and smell through all of them. And he'd start talking about things like, that I wasn't accustomed to, like, like plant harmonics. It was interesting to see even how, when we would blend products, you had this fragrance Oregon that it was on. We were creating chords and harmonies, which blew me away because it was just this, this aha moment that I was like, oh, it's not all about these chemicals. Binding these things together is about letting the plant ingredients' beauty shine through. And I started doing a little bit of formulation on my own, like making some products for family and friends and, kept up my professional endeavors. I spent a little bit of time working for Johnson and Johnson doing, everything from packaging, and retail launches and all that kind of stuff. But this was around 2008 or 2009, and I had a buddy starting one of the very first dispensaries in Boulder, Colorado. And he went on to have a, somewhat famous brand called 710 Labs, but back then, Yeah, most folks do, but back then, it was working on this project called the green screen. This was one of the very first medical dispensaries in Boulder, Colorado. I had, some of internalized some of this information about, like the plants and the, the just the different things that they could do much deeper, I think than most people think of when they think of, aromatherapy. I started seeing people coming into the shop that, there's the college kids, they got their cards, their friends, some weed. Still, there were all these other people with these, different conditions that were coming in to, like, to get cannabis to try to treat something that they were struggling with, and in their life. And fast forward a little bit, I had another dispensary in, in Denver for a while and, one kind of chance encounter with the this, this husband and wife duo that were formulating some skincare products, and was asking me about cannabis, it's like, let's, let's try some of these things out. And lo and behold, we started, mixing up some of these products, and they just, they worked. I mean, even from the first batch this guy ever made, he's like, I had some issue with his elbow, and it's like, I didn't, I didn't feel that issue with my elbow anymore. So, felt it was on to something. it was in those early days, it was kind of like, like, people had the impression of cannabis. it was about steel, for the most part, about getting high. we went around with some of these early products that we had, and that was a big, kind of feedback that we got was like, if it doesn't get you high, what's the point? I knew some of them weren't the right customers, but wasn't too deterred by all of that. the business started and then failed in the early days. And at least I thought it failed, run out of money and all those things. it, the medical market opened up in Colorado, and more people started, catching on and, eventually made it into, I guess like what, became my identity and what I was passionate about. you asked about some of the passions, I think, just this notion of plant medicine and our relationship with plants, how that changed over maybe the past 150 years from people before relying on plant medicine. all these things struck, struck a chord with me, and, happy to expand on some of the journeys with Apothecanna a little bit more, but it was those early days, with this brand new ingredient that was kind of like, like, oh, what the sky's the limits of the things that we can do with this and being able to take some of my background, and I guess my philosophy about plants into this, whole new category was just so wildly exciting. and some of the early products that were was, trying to source all local ingredients from Colorado, like, peppermint and Arnica and juniper. And those became, the foundation of some of these early products. we've just taken some other plants back, I used to use one of these ones with articles in my bedside table for years, put it on my feet, when I got married, because I was worried about walking around in high heels all day. So use this to eliminate foot pain from wearing heels. And it worked.
DAVID PALESCHUCK
James, you founded and sold Apothecanna – one of the better known THC and CBD brands. How has the landscape of cannabis product development evolved over the past decade?
JAMES KENNEDY
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And, in the packaging, I mean, that was the other thing I think I kind of noticed in cannabis is, back then, I mean, guess like, like, early 2000 10s, a lot of the packaging was, these kinds of sexy cannabis nurses on a salve or something that would be like, this, this category, and, from some of my experience, having worked at Johnson and Johnson and some of these other, large, large beauty retailers, I felt that this is such a new category, it needs to be able to resonate with people, in a way that they can kind of understand, you can't put all of these new things out at once, sometimes it requires, I think just repetition of, messages that they're accustomed to kind of get these messages across. So, even though maybe my aesthetic is a little bit more playful and bolder, we kept a lot of the Color Waves around, that was a big part of product development in the early days, for me and for the brand was, trying to make it feel like it's something that you would recognize that uh, if you're Walking into your local CVS, or any pharmacy or anything like that. So, so giving people just the breaking down some of those, fear barriers, I think that, that folks had around just this entire, category of products.
ADRIANA HEMANS
What are the challenges in formulating cannabis products for diverse consumer preferences?
JAMES KENNEDY
I was at a dinner party once. And it was and there was this woman who was it was kind of a cannabis themed. I forget what the name of those events were both beautiful, like, outside, when like, in Boulder, and, like a farm setting. And she's like, I respect what everyone's doing. But I just don't see myself ever trying cannabis. I was like, I assure you before the evenings over, you will have had tried cannabis. And then little bit later on, she, was willing to try some of the products. I think I think got a, early convert that evening.
DAVID PALESCHUCK
James, tell us about, I mean, you just mentioned some of the packaging and tell us like over the last eight years, has cannabis product development change?
JAMES KENNEDY
It's changed quite a bit. I mean, there's still, and I appreciate, like a brand, like, let's say, Rose Delights, which still does a ton of stuff in-house, they kind of like, make all their formulations, and work with the chefs and bring all this, but not everyone, that's not the way that most CPG business works, , you generally work with a lot of partners. Now, it was about a decade ago that the Cole Memo came out, and that was, this kind of federal guidance that they weren't going to go after people working in cannabis. So that was, like, what started to open up the floodgates, I guess, and, professional, more people were able to start at least exploring some of these ideas than they had before it was still a few years before you could get insurance or product liability insurance, or, things like that. But I think in the early days, you had to do everything yourself. And that was something that I think a lot of folks would, have said to us is like, if you weren't fully vertically integrated, you'd never be able to make it, you had to do everything yourself. But having worked in some other industries, and seeing how important partnerships were, and being able to get things out to scale, I kind held the belief that, that eventually, over time, that would come around. that was the first, I think, big opening to be able to work with other partners, but still at that point, I mean, we, we did a lot of sampling through those, like, kind of small little sachets, that you might find in a magazine or something. I spent almost a year trying to find someone to fill the product for us, and we never did, so we had to buy a piece of equipment from China and figure out how to make it work. basically do it, do it all ourselves. And, I also think in the early days, there was this little bit of an idea that, cannabis was kind of like this punisher that it was going to, it was a cure-all. It was a little bit maybe snake oil, like in its, in its approach, like, smoke this and everything, will feel better. And I think another big change over time is just this diversification of all these different applications folks have. And it's almost like too much to try to expand into, not only is it the different cannabinoids, or the difference between hemp, and what we would classify as, like, medical or recreational marijuana or cannabis, all these different form factors started appearing and, back then there was, you had your topicals tinctures. Then smokable, those were, pretty much the categories that were out there. I mean, even before a lot of edibles started, to make it out. And, I think, in California over the years, there is, all these different extinction events that folks would refer to where some new regulatory guideline came out that made a lot of the ways that folks were doing things just untenable to move forward with and that also happened, I think, in the hemp marketplace. CBD came out like with The sky's the limit type of, a mentality. And there's quite a few reasons why that didn't hold out to be true. I think, recently saw a little bit of a collapse of that as well, though I don't want to, say that, that it's over, it's gone. It's just it will evolve in all of these different ways. And I had a friend of mine that I was meeting with a few months back who was in the grain business. He was talking about the next wave of grains and was going through, like, how coffee operated like, early on, there was Folgers, and that laid the groundwork for Starbucks. And then that laid the groundwork for Stumptown. And then that laid the groundwork for fourth wave coffee, which is, basically what you might get from your data, much more about coffee than I do being in Seattle, but what you might get from your, like, local, local roaster. And that's happened with cannabis as well; it's, there's kind of these boom and bust cycles, where the categories have expanded out and contracted down. a lot of players, go out there and get their expectations up, and only so many, kind of, make it through. I very much feel like, we're kind of on this, I don't even know what wave to call it, but definitely like, from that post COVID boom to a little or up during COVID boom, to a little bit of a post-COVID bust it's filtering out the market, which is great for innovation. And there's going to be a whole new generation of products that are, going to rise from the ashes of, unfortunately, what a lot of people built and last, but I think it's, each one of these cycles broadens the opportunities.
ADRIANA HEMANS
James, all these different form factors, and ways to slice these consumer segments, because it's so diverse, that I think that with every cycle, we'll just see exponential opportunities for product development. Do you agree with that?
JAMES KENNEDY
I do. I have heard quite a bit of, like, Oh, we're developing this line of products that will be for, like, the sophisticated Wall Street smokers or, this line of products will, be for soccer moms or, like any other like kind of these imagined demographics that should, exist over time. But, they're not quite there ready, yet, and, still, as I work with different clients, and I think in, in more established states, they're kind of hip to the realization that, really, 80% of their products, this is more on the recreational cannabis side of things, 80% of their products go to like, heavy, heavy smokers, it's not all these new emerging categories, it's, it's, it's the people that already understand this, and it can be kind of a waste of resources to try to build into, some of these. Now, I say that, and I think seniors are among the most underserved and underrepresented demographics. With my business with Apothecanna, over half of our sales went to folks who were over the age of 55. And they were excellent customers; they were great customers. They referred our products to friends. They generally had the money not to go out and try to find someone that was cheaper.
ADRIANA HEMANS
We have a big segment of seniors that are customers of Green Meadows, and I'm hearing everything you're saying, totally agreeing that that's a really important segment.
JAMES KENNEDY
Really awesome segment.
ADRIANA HEMANS
Do you want to jump into a little quiz, though, since our audience seems pretty warmed up now?
DAVID PALESCHUCK
Sure. Just to call out one thing quickly. One of the things that I really enjoyed James was, I believe, there was an advertisement for Apothecanna, which was basically showing tennis players, again, appealing to this older age category. So it's interesting to see that it's very unusual in the cannabis space. But in light of time, let's jump to our Audience quiz, shall we?
ADRIANA HEMANS
All right. So audience, if you think the answer, please feel free to jump in and take a guess at what the answer to this question is. The question is the average product developer begins designing when what percentage of the product requirements are known? Is it a 15%, B 35%, C 50%, or D 65%? And this is not cannabis specific. This is just product development all over the map.
DAVID PALESCHUCK
Audience: It’s your turn to shine!
ADRIANA HEMANS
James, what are your thoughts?
JAMES KENNEDY
Oh, I don't I don't think I know this one off offhand. I'm going to go with the same answer, though. I think I think it's probably about half. C.
DAVID PALESCHUCK
We should point out to Adriana, and I always talk about who's your customer, knowing your customers? So this question, I mean, almost, insinuates that that, that people should understand who they're developing the product for that even though it might be a number of people, or a number of consumer segments. But one thing I hear in the cannabis space all the time is, it's for everybody. And so it's kind of funny, cannabis products are not for everybody at least starting off. 21 and above. Right?
ADRIANA HEMANS
Should we reveal the answer?
DAVID PALESCHUCK
Yes, we should.
ADRIANA HEMANS
You're waiting in suspense? The answer is C. 50%.
DAVID PALESCHUCK
It is indeed. Well, so let's jump to a couple of more questions. Time is running fast today. James, how should one approach developing a cannabis product if they have a specific consumer segment in mind?
JAMES KENNEDY
Well, there's a lot of, and a lot of luck involved. And in reality, I think a big part of all of this is, you need to know, that people want what you're making, that's, that's tremendously important. And then, a luckier element of that is timing, a great idea, the wrong time might not hit. So, I think if you have, if you have a target in mind, it's an excellent idea to try to get to know that that target, I mean, kind of a popular activity or activity that a lot of product developers will do will create like a persona. So, for example, we made this brand character; her name was Jessica. We found that this 27-year-old female demographic, even though our demographic was much broader, was the most influential they shared with their friends and significant others with their family. So we tried to get to know this customer; where did they shop? What music do they listen to? Just what are they into? What are they? What are they looking for? What are their common pain points? Having that character can be helpful because you're not just looking at stats and numbers. Still, you're starting to put on human characteristics to it, making it slightly more believable.
My perspective has largely been that it's just going through iterations, seeing what hits, experimenting, and not trying to be dead on right away. We've developed a product called the Daily Hit. Did you ever know that one? But we did it in conjunction with a beauty retailer. I contacted Cap Beauty. Part of the development process for that was to go into the retailer to talk to all the sales associates and to ask them what people were buying, like what is, this what are people into. We came back with all these other ingredients that we hadn't thought of, or some I wasn't even really super familiar with, and probably ordered some of those ingredients, started putting them into the product, and making some adjustments until we found that, okay, we're reflecting what that, average consumer for is kind of shopping for in the store. And, the big part about that product for me was we wanted it to taste great because I thought so many tinctures and cannabinoid products, in general, don't taste good. So that was a lot of just sitting there with a spoon and trying these different things and thinking about how that would work on a salad dressing, a smoothie, or other things like that. So, I guess, it's, it's having a general, it isn't easy, like you said, to try to, develop a product for the planet Earth, that's just way too broad, it's beneficial to get specific and have some characteristics that you understand that that person, might resonate with. And then there's a lot of trial that really makes great products, and it blows my mind. Sometimes, I don't want to call it anyone in particular. Still, some more prominent, like cannabis companies, invest a lot into beverages, like the drinks don't taste delicious. And I couldn't understand how they could bring products to market that didn't taste great, especially in that category.
ADRIANA HEMANS
especially in such a crowded category too. And we have not only cannabis beverages, but all these other beverages that are expected to taste good. And people have that those high standards for everything else. So that is kind of wild. Question for you, James, looking at product development for adult use consumers, and then also medical consumers, like what do you need to keep in mind when you're making products that should? Or you want them to fit in both categories?
JAMES KENNEDY
There are some broad categories or considerations; medical efficacy is backed by science. You have much more flexibility on the recreational side of things to have fun. Still, if you're dealing with not just your end customer, being someone that might have a condition that they're trying to treat, but also dealing with health care practitioners and folks involved in that whole cycle, you do need to be a lot more specific of what you're trying to achieve. And I think you also need to be very clear about what the active ingredients are going on; it should resemble medicine, a little bit more than fruit-flavored delicious, like cannabis confections. So long the medical efficacy are dosage and potency. How should this be taken, how frequently, again, in the recreational market, maybe you want three milligrams to help you get to sleep, perhaps you want a little bit more to have fun at a concert, on the medical side of things that needs to be a little bit more thought through. And the quality and safety standards on the recreational side are critical factors. But when you're dealing with medical patients, it can be, I don't want to say, well, maybe limiting, there are not as many other things that you want to put in there, you want it to be a little bit more straightforward. And that also extends to just, really, the education and the support of these products and how they will get there out in the market. It needs to be a little bit more specific to what you're trying to achieve at the end of the day. I think that's one of the incredible things about cannabis in general: you can try to impact all these different mood states or feelings that people want to feel, and it can be fun to choose your adventure. But on the medical side, it must resemble more traditional delivery methods and ways that people have taken medicine. So it does not create any unnecessary confusion.
DAVID PALESCHUCK
Absolutely. One of the things Adriana and I often talk about is the variable we call “additive” versus “subtractive.” Additive is enhancing what you're doing, which is more adult use, it's more I'm taking a hike or I'm about to paint or I'm about to do something that I want to enhance.
ADRIANA HEMANS
Think date night or going to the movies!
DAVID PALESCHUCK
It's pretty much what I was thinking, thanks. But subtractive is precisely the opposite. Subtractive is I have pain. It's your mindset when you're thinking about taking an Advil: you want to alleviate that pain and make it happen quickly. Those are two different needs, states, and mindsets that people are in when they're consuming, often when they're consuming cannabis. The other thing, to go back briefly, you said luck before; I mean, timing has everything to do with it, too. If you looked at cannabis beverages just five years ago, the technology wasn't the same as it is today; where we have nano sonification, we've got smaller particles, which allow for faster uptake.
In contrast, just five years ago, you will have super sweet beverages designed to cover the taste of cannabis. And when you opened up the liquid, there was an oil slick on top because it was separating. So, it's interesting to see the technologies that have changed. And just one other thing adding to luck and timing. Consumers are looking for the latest, most excellent item they're looking for. People have gone from CBD, and it had its trajectory. And then it's fallen from grace, if you will; we did the same thing with NFTs; we're doing the same thing with AI. I could list all the all the trends, all the technologies, all of those things. So it's exciting to see, it's not only a great product, it's not only luck, it has everything to do with timing and technology, and all these things sort of coming together to offer something to the right people at the right time. It is going back to something you had said a moment ago, which was educating. Please talk to us a little more about educating and being transparent about what the products are, what they're made from, how they should be used, and when they should be used. Because I think that's a missing component in the cannabis space.
JAMES KENNEDY
So, with education, I lean on the side of the edutainment I want. I want a message that sticks and resonates with people, and I think it gets them in the right frame of mind to want to dive deeper. It's not like this, putting all of this information on the forefront and putting the onus on the customer to dive into it, and try to disseminate it all, I think that's one of the powers of the brand is, you can bring people in with this messaging, this messaging that resonates on a human level, that that's relatable, that, makes them, maybe even brings up some nostalgia or, other experiences that they've had in life, and then take them, like, on a more of a storytelling pathway where that information becomes evident. It's stickier when it's not just all thrown out there initially. And, and that's not just through the written word or, though, trying to read something off, that can also happen through, I think, creative brand storytelling, and, whether that be graphics or motion graphics, or, I love when I see brands create these universes, and, it's trendy, I think with if you're familiar with a cereal brand off limits, but that's kind of like that good for you cereal that you'll start seeing, in the grocery aisle, like some $9, Cheerios. Still, they have on all of their different products that create these characters. And these characters have these whole universes that they live in, and throughout the box, you go on these journeys with these characters. So it's not hitting you over the head with, like, this is better for you because it has these things or doesn't have them. It's inviting you in with a much more provocative catch, like entering this universe. And as you enter that universe, you're being educated along the way. If you can make it fun, it will be more effective.
DAVID PALESCHUCK
Yeah, absolutely. It's, I mean, everyone's looking for a backstory. And one of one of our comments here is education has been the new buzzword and it's true. It's some hopefully it will replace disruptive which is one of the words that his has driven me crazy.
We have we have gone through only just a few of our questions, but I see almost come to the, to the end of our time that we share our 45 minutes every week. James Are , is there anything you'd like to leave the audience with? Is there a book? Is there a movie? Is there an experience that that you want to share with people?
JAMES KENNEDY
I did enjoy seeing Oppenheimer in the theater. But I hadn't been in a movie theater for a while. And I was like, Man, that was so loud, all the explosions. But anyway, that's showing my age a little bit. I was thinking about the books and had a few because I'm a huge fan of plant intelligence. That's my favorite subject. And I first got into that, there's a book called The Hidden Life of Trees, which was like this. German forestry workers experienced and started to understand that these trees weren't just sitting there in isolation. I guess that's like, from a biological standpoint, they're all these individual things. They're an ecological system. And that's a great book. But the one that, again, in the theme of great storytelling, there's a book called The “Overstory” by Richard Powers, one of my very, very favorite books. And that talks about the sentience of trees, and the communications networks, and, really kind of, I think, puts into perspective, just as human beings, we see ourselves as the central forces of everything, but the way that that book is written in showing these much longer timelines, I think it shows, how we're more part of a more significant thing. And on that same topic. One of my favorite books is braiding sweetgrass, which is a little bit more of an indigenous perspective on ecology and plants, and, kind of the same theme of maybe getting off our high horse of being so central to everything that happens around us, we are participants in this more fantastic thing that's, happening around us. , not, we don't always need to be the main characters. And life can be a little bit more entertaining. If you, take on that. It could be less stressful if you take on that perspective as well. So, the “Overstory” and “Braiding Sweetgrass” are a couple of my favorite books on plant intelligence.
DAVID PALESCHUCK
James, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you so much, James. Not only for what you've done in the industry for what you continue to do. And really your perspective. I mean, it's really refreshing. And like I said earlier, there hasn't been a conversation that we've had that I haven't thoroughly enjoyed. So thank you so much for all you do, and we'll see you soon keep doing it.
ADRIANA HEMANS
Thank you, James.
JAMES KENNEDY
And anytime, David and thanks Adriana for having me.
DAVID PALESCHUCK
That’s our show for today. As always, that was the fastest 45 minutes of my week! We’ll be back next Thursday, October 26th with Ben Kennedy, Founder and CEO of Fable Libations chatting about “Cannabis And Craft Beverages”.
We’ve recently released two online courses that have received rave reviews. “The 14 Cannabis Brand Archetypes” and “Creating A Meaningful Cannabis Brand” can be found on our site at www.brandingbud.com/edu - and you find the link right now in the chat. Remember to use our exclusive 25% discount code BBEDU25 for our LinkedIn listeners.
Again, we’d like to thank our sponsor, High Hopes – a boutique agency with over 10 years in the cannabis space specializing in branding, packaging, SEO & marketing. Be sure to check them out at www.highopes.co.
ADRIANA HEMANS
Hit that button to register so you don’t miss it. If you miss us in the meantime, you can re-watch today’s episode, or any of our previous episodes, on our LinkedIn page, Branding Bud Live, or on our YouTube channel. Please give us a follow on LinkedIn to stay on top of everything Branding Bud Live.
DAVID PALESCHUCK
And you can listen to our podcast on most podcast platforms including Apple, Google, Amazon, and Spotify. And of course, don’t forget to check out cannabis’s best-kept secret at www.brandingbud.com
Thank you everybody!
ADRIANA HEMANS
Thank you. Bye!
Please check us out there if you've missed any of our previous episodes.
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